Hello gringo's, Well as some know I had an ST a whole 1 day before getting rid of it and going Amiga (was a great move) but trying to be fair and impartial I spent today going through a lot of the games via an emulator (Steem to be exact). Now I'm not a fanboy of any machine, if there's games that are good then I got to that machine, I still have favourites but there's lots of goodies out there on many machines. So off I went and loaded up the ST Gamebase and started playing. I tried to pick games I'd not seen on the Amiga but as so many were ported to the Amiga it was a tough ask. I spent 4hrs on and off (neck pain) and I have to say I for me wasn't wrong all those years ago, most of the original titles were pretty ordinary with the odd exception with the only being that 3D stuff had a better frame rate, not hugely different but slightly smoother. The lack of sprites (bar the mouse pointer) became a clear issue as was the lack of hardware scrolling leading to not so fancy graphics and the dreaded 'push scroll' ie getting to the edge of the screen and the whole screen chunked a full screen at once which in the shooters left you unexpectedly face first in to an enemy on the next screen. I ran out of unknown titles that were any good very quickly so decided to do an ST / Amiga comparison. Now the early ports like Robocop were pretty much identical, many were done by a guy called Pete Johnstone who was the go to port guy for people like Ocean and good old Pete was a man of his word, mega quick ports to fill the boxes with. Sadly this was at the loss of ANY improvements that the Amiga could do so the game was identical and in rare cases worse. Once the coders started to understand the Amiga, people like Andrew Braybrook (Uridium man) who actually went to I think it was Germany to learn from the demo coders of what was what. only then did the Amiga get noticed and used better. Instead of the generic flat sounds from the ST we got a decent wavelength set of sounds with samples actually not sounding like they were from an 8 bit. And then we got the sprites and BOBS (blitter objects) so you got more than 2 planes on the screen After that you saw the copper list being properly used and so the games that were ported started to look and sound better with proper use of the Amiga. So after all that my opinion of the ST remains the same, it was brought out as a utility / business machine (as was the Amiga initially) but they soon found that games were the food of the day and they were the weakest point on the ST, sure it could do them but it didn't have the needed guts to do them justice where only full 3D games had an advantage on the Amiga. Bit of a shame, the ST isn't a horrible machine, it just wasn't given the right thought about what it wanted to be and with the Amiga being what would have been the ST but passed on much to Commodores luck it left the poor old ST often looking like a slightly higher res 8 bit where when used properly the Amiga was in a different class. Remember this is just my opinion, I'm sure those who are more technical about the ST can point out things it did better than the Amiga (ie built in MIDI support which was well received) but I look at it from a gamer viewpoint and for me its ok but in the 'could do better' line..
Good topic Paul. I was always an ST man first and never really warmed as much to the Amiga, although I had the A500, 600, 1200 etc. The, ahem, compilation discs on the ST were always really good from Medway, Pompey etc and I think that was one of the draws for me. Plus the machine itself was often a fair bit cheaper than the Amiga. For general productivity use I think the ST was a much easier machine to work with. The monochrome high res mode was really good and I still prefer the GEM desktop to Workbench. It just seemed cleaner and much easier to use. I have many happy memories of using Timeworks DTP and First Word word processor on the ST. Also loved Neochrome graphics program and PC Ditto to emulate a DOS pc. That was another thing with the Atari, it used the same 720k format as the PC meaning it was very easy to swap files between them. 30 years later I now have an Amiga 500 and an Atari 1040STFM in the mancave and can safely say it's the Amiga which gets much more play. I love games like Arcade Pook, Sensi Soccer and Kick Off on it. Really much better than the ST versions. It's been ages since I last played on the Atari. Finally, FujiNet has got me thinking about something. I've enjoyed playing around with the pdf printing option and then using my Brother laser to emulate the old dot matrix. So I wonder if there is some similar program or interface for the ST that would let me print to PDF or directly from stuff like Timeworks and PrintMaster Plus? Then the ST would certainly get more 'serious' use, while the Amiga could be my gaming computer and I wouldn't have to feel bad about changing sides!
Yeah, it's a neat thread, Paul & Al. You both make some very good points and I enjoyed reading em. The ST seems to be in the most a machine used as a stepping stone to getting an Amiga once we decided that we must abandon the 8bit line and get the next big thing (before we all then went and bought PC clones). Mind, how many realised that the 8bit line still had a lot going for it? Like you, Paul, my initial enthusiasm for the Atari 520STFM quickly waned - I had mine about 6-8 months though - and everyone was talking up and showing incredible demos of the Amiga A500, so off I went like a lemming but to be fair, as Al points out, I always rated the more serious software utils on the ST above the Amiga's as they were much more stable. The damn guru errors on the Amiga used to drive me loopy whenever I was trying to work with say large DTP files on the A500 so I lost a lot of confidence in it for "work" type situations and so was easily convinced to get a 2mb 486 PC. Then later, the old love for the 8bit was rekindled whereas it never fully returned for either the ST or Amiga. Make of that what you will! Hope to be on here much more again soon, lads. Take care and catch up real soon.
I'm like Andy here, as much as I do enjoy the Amiga and loved it in the day I seem to go back a generation to the 8 bits more, my Atari XL and C64 get the most love and time, maybe its because I class them as my first machines (which is a lie as I had a zx80 etc before them) because they feel like I used them more in the day. Again, not really the case as I pro rata used the Amiga way more but they feel like my babies... As I was still very active in the scene back then I also moved up to a PC as that was what the sene had done so I also became a lemming and followed suite. The PC for me was a bigger ST though, it wasn't pretty, it made (when added on) FM noise but apart from the sharper picture it seemed a step back from the Amiga but its where the supply of games was so I joined the PC wagon as painful as it was (640 base memory anyone). To be honest I still don't see the PC as a games machine in its own right, it costs so much to see anything decent its really easier to get a console and its disk in and go, ok the res goes down and there's often a drop in frame rate but it's good enough at less than half the price of a graphics card. Anyway, yesterday's marathon just made me realise 100%, I made the right choice back then to get rid of the ST and the comments from you guys confirm what I thought about the machine. It's just not the machine for the stuff I like most, I'm a tinkerer and a player, give me an Action Replay and I'm as happy as a pig in pooh and that is a common factor in all my loved machine, OmnimonXL, Action Replay for C64 and Amiga (plus most of the consoles I own have machine code monitor devices on them). The ST for me was all too nice and goody goody with nothing slightly shady going on where the Amiga had all the hackers playing around with the OS to make it do more stuff and there were so many utils for me to play with. Don't get me wrong, I've seen some ST demo's that were bloody amazing considering the limitations but you can't play a demo and many of the effects were not real time and pre calculated so they could not be used in games to any real effect. Its a bit like Mode 7 on the Snes, when you first see this scaling its amazing but games that played using it fully were few and far between, Pilot Wings being one but it mostly got used as something for a boss mode in the background or as the background on some levels, the only games that got extensive use of it were driving games and flying games but as it was a 2D effect flying games tried to go down the 3D route more. For me the ST was underthought, from day one computers were a games machine no matter what the machine games appeared on it but Atari just wanted the ST to be this amazing business machine and gave so little thought to the most obvious use of the machine, had they done that and added small amounts of hardware that gave sprites and graphical sophistication and better sound the ST would have soared, but no, the games were almost an unwanted after thought for Atari, they ruined its business appeal which was already lost to the PC to be honest. Would I play some games on the ST, yes but its few and far between, it just feels like a toy to me and I know that sounds harsh but even the keyboard click sound annoys me and if I hear the Goldrunner music once more I'll choke. I've nothing against Steve Bak, he was a lovely guy that we always had a drink with at the shows (his son followed him into the industry and worked at Gremlin games) but as smart as Goldrunner is there was a game on the Amiga the same time as Goldrunner was released and it was German (I think) and it simply blew goldrunner away, sadly it didn't get the PR that Microdeal could afford and sold but not to its potential as it was from an unknown. Again we asked Steve if the Amiga version was going to be tarted up but he was on order to just make sure it got ported. Wonder where the old (early on) slap head is now...Lovely bloke, no "I can't talk to you public types". I hope this little thread makes people think and even play, be it ST, Amiga or another machine, its all good... Paul..The only mask wearer apart from my daughter and Cindy in Northolt.. Just found out that Steve passed away in 2019 from diabetes complications.. As said, lovely bloke, was a legend in the industry
Amazing, Paul. You've known and befriended some real industry figures, notable software coders and great retro computer guys in your lifetime and I always enjoy your trips down memory lane (yes, 640K base memory in this case!) This has got a few of us reflecting on the road we've been down in terms of the ups and downs and bumps we've experienced with the hardware and software we've all used since the early 80s. Going back to the ST, I used to love playing Buggy Boy and maybe 1-2 other half decent games such as Bubble Bobble, Stunt Car Racer etc, but my fave title was Carrier Command on the 520STFM as it felt so immersive and the strategy elements as well as the simulated battles were all very well done by Rainbird but I'm guessing the Amiga version would be at least as good, possibly better (unless it Guru'd!). Clearly a better version was Anco's Kick Off2 on the A500. The additional sound effects, smooth pixel perfect scrolling and speed/feel of the game, left the ST version in the 2nd division and I clearly remember being so glad I made the upgrade as we all remember only too well that sinking feeling when your mate had a much better micro than you and you wished to god you'd chosen X over Y cos otherwise you felt like you were the poor relation in all the micro banter! LOL! Yes, give me an Amiga any day for a mind blowing graphic and sound demo or a really great arcade game. Give me an ST if I want to do some 16bit sound sampling or word processing or DTPing. Give me a PC for the internet and some graphic work but most of all... GIVE ME AN 8BIT MICRO WHENEVER I WANNA GO BACK TO THE TIME I WAS HAPPIEST - PLAYING THE ORIGINAL ARCADE CLASSICS ON A MACHINE WE CUT OUR TEETH ON WHEN PROGRAMMING, DEMO-ING, GETTING A FEEL FOR A COMPUTER AND REALLY HAVING FUN WITH OUR MATES WAS WHAT GAVE US OUR FIRST REAL BUZZ ETC. I think this strikes a common chord with many of us old veterans of the 80s micro golden years, fellas, yeah?
Re the folks I've known, just a case of meeting people at shows and getting on and working for Maplins with loads of devs around. Steve Bak was just one of the folks who I clicked with, you would end up at a show, he'd spot me and we would have a good old natter about all sorts of stuff. He wasn't like a best mate but it was what happened at the shows and I'm quite personable so more often than not get on with folks. We have all done it and I'd bet 99% of us have similar stories re famous coders we have bumped in to. I just seemed to be in the right place at the right time. Like you the PC is a machine of doing rather than gaming even though I do play games on it they tend to be emulated and the PC is used to browse and find stuff for the emulators etc... Its deffo not for blooming social media, that's for sure, I see the forums as a private little place to meet mates and chat rather than things like Facebook where its all about self promotion which is not my style of going on. And like all of us, if I can help someone on a forum it's even better. On a down note, just took my 800 down to give it a clean and found that almost every key on the keyboard sticks now, hoping someone on AA can give advice as to if its fixable. I never use the 800, its just my big old mascot but it would be nice if it still could work and with NOS keyboards weighing in at 125.00 US plus import duty and the fact they don't guarantee them as the plungers could have deteriorated over the years even if they have not been used. All in all way too much money and a risk...
Sorry to hear your pain with the old 800 keyboard, Paul. The Electron I recently inherited had quite a stiff old keyboard with about 5-6 keys not working at all until I levered the key caps off carefully with some scissors, blew out the heaps of dust underneath and cleaned the keys up with wet wipes and cotton buds cleaned the contacts underneath etc. I'm not saying its perfect now as I haven't the time to retrobrite it all or anything like that but it's all moving again now more freely and those faulty keys now work fine. I'm not saying it will be the same/as straightforward for your 800 as it's likely to be even older but hopefully you'll get some good pointers, pal, at trying some restorative treatment. Like you point out, the alternative of buying a replacement NOS keyboard is just plain way too expensive. Good luck, Paul.
Personally I preferred the ST over the Amiga even though I knew the Amiga was superior. I liked the GEM environment, the HiRes monitor was excellent and for MIDI stuff it was the best choice. My brother got an A500 for Christmas and I didn’t like the Shell and CLI at the time and the guru meditation screen seemed to happen quite a lot. When the STe came out there were some games that supported the extra features and they were as good as the A500/600 stuff, it was just too late by then. The games were pretty decent I thought at the time, Carrier Command, Frontier Elite 2, Silent Service 2 and Knights of the Sky and Mike Singletons Midwinter were my mainstays. I didn’t change until the A1200 came out and even then I still used my ST more for DTP and MIDI. After that I went down the console route with the 3DO, Saturn, Dreamcast, and the Xbox’es. So I will always have a soft spot for ST’s more so than the Amiga, but I know I am in the minority
If you want some help looking at your keyboard Paul I’ll help if I can. Steve Marshall has some Oric kit he wants looked at but that hasn’t arrived yet and apart from that I have nothing on my workbench. I have done my composite mod for my ZX81 and only the quick HiRes mod to do on a RAM pack so plenty of space and time.
Thank you for the very kind offer Richie, I suspect I'll need to take the bottom board off and replace the plungers so I can give my so far unused desolder gun (cheapo) a test.. Also got loads of time this end..But again, thank you for the offer..Its purely that I can do it myself and that means you get more time to help others which I know you love doing...
A good defence made there for the ST, Richie. I remember mates raving about Midwinter too but I never got round to checking that out. Maybe I should some day. Nice one offering to help Paul too with his 800 keyboard. Like us, some of our kit is beginning to show its age! I've got a parcel limbering up here destined for you, Rich, which should arrive all being well for Easter. There are 1-2 items within which you might also get a chance to give a quick solder to - but only if you get chance, mate. It's not a big deal in terms of being important and I just hope that the other "odds and sods" within the boxes bring a bigger smile to your face! You should confirmation of despatch in the next few hours, pal. Cheers, fellas and good luck once more with your keyboard, Paul.
I'm having a bit of luck, never knew the plungers pulled out rather than dismantling the whole board, got a couple out and gave them a good wash, put them back in and bingo, no sticking key. Now washed the lot but if there was gunk on the plunger then there's still some down the old hole I'll bet. Just awaiting feedback if I can just spray isoprop down the hole to remove the gunk which is almost impossible to see so must be very thin. Almost had a balls up though, put the plunger back with the spring nd the spring caught on the leaf mech thats down there and I did see until the plunger hit it and mangles the the leaf..Careful work with special tweezers helped me straighten it out....Phew...
Sounds like you're making good progress, Paul. Great work - it will be twice as satisfying if you can fix the old gal and get her to 'trype' and feel like new again, fella. Is this the model that needed/needs a new space bar, if memory serves me right? Keep us up to speed, mate.
Yes, the very same, wish I could find a space bar but as long as it works that's all I care, the beast will never be sold...
If I remember correctly the 800 keyboard is the same Stackpole style as the Oric so you could use a bit of IPA inside to clean the contacts, just need to be careful not to bend the leaf springs too much. Contact cleaner leaves residue behind so I wouldn’t use that. I have the same problem with my Atmos’es space bar and that’s how I fix it. Thanks for the heads up Andy, looking forward to seeing what you’re sending... more LED lights?
How did you guess, Rich!? I know that if there's anyone out there who can enLIGHTen me, mate, it's always you! Hopefully, some other bits in there that might come in handy for you at some point...we'll see but after the hot stuff you sent me, I felt you needed to chill, fella! LOL ;-)
