1. Not old. Vintage. :)

What's new Pussycat too?

Discussion in 'SIG: General Chat' started by M.D.Baker, May 4, 2020.

  1. M.D.Baker

    M.D.Baker Chief Officer

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    Not quite, but I can't keep it a secret, I'm too excited...inspired by...

    IBMATARIPC.jpeg

    :cigar:

    I came to this decision after yellowing returning with a vengeance after retro-brite a few years ago, and with an 810 that has cracks in the case that need repair and an splotchy complexion anyway, and long thought and pondering finding "800 beige" paint and restoring. But finally concluded, since I am already beyond the point of no return with an already custom hacked case, I figured "why not create as close to the dream you've had ever since you first saw the IBM 'ATARI' PC?". But this won't be exact, no case modification or exact colors, etc. I'll be putting my own unique twist on it too...check out my custom key-cap decals! I've been meaning to add graphic symbols to my Atari keyboards anyway, but with Worst (Best) Electronics being the only source...

    This will be my whole 800 system: 800, 810, 410, CX85, mouse (TRS-80 converted), a joystick and possibly my extra Atari touch-tablet.

    Of course the letters "IBM" will never touch this system except for on the appropriate keys, it will still have a Fuji badge and the Atari 800 name, though they will be new, to match the motif, and I may still add the "personal computer" or other unique signifiers.

    The system will still be accompanied with the contrasting black of the 2 Indus GT drives, LCD monitor and my home-made wood monitor stand that I already painted black to match.

    :loopy:
    20211011_205643.jpg

    All paint colors chosen for closest match to the colors in the picture, but based solely on my memory of the colors in the picture and what colors where available. Not bad, oy?

    Keyboard decals will only be used on keys that will be white (the lighter grey keys with print in the "IBM" picture) the colored keys I have a different plan for restoring the key-cap text.

    I was also given inspiration to do this from my TRS-80 Coco 2*, as it sat where the 800 will sit, while doing testing. By the way, that's also my "new" refurbished PC standing on end there, I finally have a Windows 10 computer, which I am using right now. :(
    My old Win 7 PC is still set up in my room.

    20211011_222004.jpg

    *(which, by the way, also got it's new Hitachi 6309 replacement CPU for the Motorola 6809, with 1.78Mhz "turbo" mode. With an external 512K & OS-9 card I will be Coco 3 compatible, except for graphics, so Coco 3 OS-9 compatible except for Coco 3 only games)
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2021 at 12:03 AM
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  2. M.D.Baker

    M.D.Baker Chief Officer

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    My NOS Avalon Hill games arrived today, with versions on each's cassette for Atari 8-bit and TRS-80 Coco.

    Also another couple of sets of custom Atari key caps, these in black, which I got only to use the graphic symbols off of them for my 1200XL computers. The key cap decals with the graphic symbols will be cut in half and the half with the graphic symbols will be attached to the front of my 1200XL keyboard keys, just like the original graphic symbol stickers produced by Atari. The rest will be saved for a rainy day; possibly an all black Atari in the future? Poly-Play, where I got the Avalon Hill games, and also have the new Atari 8-bit, Infocom-like, game on pre-order also sells the custom Atari key cap vinyl decals in black and white, if anyone is interested.

    https://www.polyplay.xyz

    20211012_141853.jpg
     
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  3. AlexDrito

    AlexDrito Deckhand

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    Trying to identify the responsible of the damage for the C64 I mentioned above in this thread. Bingo!

    https://www.pictorial64.com/fault.htm?id=u14_1

    MOS 7709 or the equivalent should be enough for the fixing. U14 chip has been extracted and found broken.
     
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  4. by Paul "Mclaneinc" Irvine
    Paul "Mclaneinc" Irvine

    Paul "Mclaneinc" Irvine Chief Officer

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  5. AlexDrito

    AlexDrito Deckhand

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    Thanks, Paul.

    For now, replacing the U14 with a 74F258 (instead of a 74LS258) worked fine! They are the same family, apparently... but someone told me it's better to go for a true MOS7709 (quite impossible to find) or a 74LS258, which should be the "slower" version of the "F" (fast?) chip type. I really don't know the difference between the two, but I asked some friends if they happen to have the "LS" version, which is recommended in the long run, so they say. :)
     
  6. M.D.Baker

    M.D.Baker Chief Officer

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    @AlexDrito

    I can't say I'm an expert on C64's, but I know my stuff with electronics in general, and my vast experience with Atari 8-bits and expanded knowledge of 8-bits with all I've learned with my TRS-80 Coco 2 while upgrading and modifying it.

    From my experience, you are better off replacing all 74LSXXX I.C.'s with newer compatible ones, this includes 74HCXXX and the even newer 74FXXX I.C.'s. Especially if you upgrade and mod, because the extra electronic hardware adds "stress" in the timing and signal strength between the chips on the buss, and also more strain on the PSU and capacitors and maybe even more heat on the entire system, added capacitance and resistance issues too.

    The newer I.C.'s like the HC and F series, because they are faster, can be a huge help in fixing those timing and signal issues, they also consume less power and give off less heat and lessen over capacitance or resistance issues too. And as the original used LS chips age, like old capacitors, it's best to swap them out even with stock computers. And though using replacement LS I.C.'s is fine, it actually is better to use the newer HC or F series of the 74 type logic chips because they do help with all the old, used, weak components in these old 8-bits by the same token too.

    And with the over-heating issues and old capacitor issues and other break downs I've read about with Commodore 64's (at least the older bread-bin models) I would not only keep the 74F258 chip right where it is, but any other 74LS series I.C.'s in the computer should be replaced with newer 74HC or 74F I.C.'s. I swapped out all the 74LS series I.C's in my multiple 8-bits (as well as capacitors and precision sockets) with 74HC and more recently 74F's in the TRS-80 Coco 2 I'm upgrading. I have none of the issues I hear that others have with heavily upgraded Atari's or Coco's because of these upgrades, and others, more expert than I, on Atari Age often suggest this as a fix with certain known problem areas when people have issues with some Atari upgrades and stability problems caused by some or all of the above.

    I don't know why anyone told you that your C64 would be better off with original 74LS258 or any other 74LS chips. Being faster is only a good thing (as well as the other benefits I mentioned), in my experience. This is about latency or the lack of, not clock speeds. Everything will still run at 1Mhz on the C64, or .08Mhz on the Coco 2, or 1.77/9Mhz on the Atari's. The newer 74HC or 74F chips just react faster in response to signals passed along to them, but the clock speed in and out is still the same! As long as the chip is 74 series and the same number at the end as the 74LS it is replacing, it is better to go with the newer versions.

    And the original hard-to-find MOS7709 I'd think would be no better in it's aspects than a 74LS258 and maybe even worse as it's probably even an older version of the 74 series...though I admit this is a guess, as I know nothing of the MOS7709's, but it must be compatible with the 74X(X)258's or you couldn't use any 74 series as a replacement in the first place. Newer tech will always be better for all the reasons given, as long as it's compatible.

    My guess must be that anyone that gave you advice on returning to the MOS7709 or 74LS258 chips really doesn't know much about electronics or the chips and is guessing themselves that they would be better just because they were used originally, which is a totally false assumption.

    Only in the case of the small industry standard I.C.'s that are in all 8-bits there to support the main processors in what ever capacity they are designed for, I'm not referring to CPU's or custom chips like the VIC II or SID, that do the real computing, because when it comes to referring to their speed, in that case it does refer to the clock rate in as much as the maximum they are designed to handle safely. But even with them, if you replaced a 1Mhz CPU with one rated at 2Mhz, as long as the pins are all compatible (not always the case, a perfect example being the 6510 of the C64, which is basically a 6502, but because of unique features that make it a 6510, is not pin compatible, so you can't swap them out). But on the other hand I have replaced my 6502B in my 800 with a 6502C which are pin-compatible and even though the 6502C is rated for a higher clock speed, it still runs at the normal 1.77/9Mhz because the crystal is the same.

    Sorry for the long instructional or "lecture" post, but I wanted to explain why and not just say the 74F or 74HC are better, so you understand and are not just accepting my word or some one else's on blind faith, especially since otherwise you might be inclined to believe the other's in their false assumption instead of me just because you may know them better than me. As I said at the beginning, I could be wrong for some reason, since I don't know the architecture of the C64, but these small support I.C.'s are the same in all 8-bit and even 16-bit computers, and do the same thing for their part, regardless of the system architecture, so I doubt highly I am wrong.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021 at 8:20 AM
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  7. by Paul "Mclaneinc" Irvine
    Paul "Mclaneinc" Irvine

    Paul "Mclaneinc" Irvine Chief Officer

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    All I can tell you is, I like brown sauce with my chips..
     
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  8. M.D.Baker

    M.D.Baker Chief Officer

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    LOL! But don't you have some experience with what I am referring too with 74LS and 74F series chips? I thought I recalled you posting on AA about having issues with U1MB or some other upgrade and the suggested fix by some one (probably The Doctor or Doctor Venkman or FlashJazzCat) was replacing the 74LS with a 74F for greater stability? Of course you weren't the only or first, if it was you, and I could be wrong and it was someone else...

    The reason I remember the post and replies, if it was you or not, was because this was the first that I myself had heard of the newer 74F series, I was still replacing 74LS series with 74HC series until I read that thread, now I am using 74F series as they are more improved in all the areas I mentioned. If I had read it and replied first, I would have suggested a 74HC instead, as I didn't know of the 74F.
     
  9. by Paul "Mclaneinc" Irvine
    Paul "Mclaneinc" Irvine

    Paul "Mclaneinc" Irvine Chief Officer

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    Not that I remember Matt, always possible though with my memory..

    As for the chips, I used to know what all the letters stood for when I was selling them but as for their usage, not a clue in all honesty. What little electronics I know does not include circuit design. I can follow a circuit to a degree but if you say that chip latches pin 3 when its high, you may as well be talking gibberish to me.

    Electronics never interested me, even though I was employed to sell electronic components and computers (hired for my computer knowledge). When I am interested in a thing, then I learn very quickly, with electronics I just did the basics to allow me to sell stuff and do the 48K 400 upgrades.
     
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  10. M.D.Baker

    M.D.Baker Chief Officer

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    All prepped and ready to go! Now I just have to wait for some time off and good weather to start painting. All the larger cases and pieces on the left side are slated for white paint. The upper right are pieces slated for grey paint (the top case for the CX85 keypad is getting the face painted grey and then that will be masked and the rest that is masked now will be white. Where the red mouse button is, with a few keys taped together are slated to be painted blue.

    I still have to prep a CX85 joystick, and have decided not to paint my extra touch tablet and save it for my second 1200 as the Radio Shack Coco mouse I'm converting will take the place of the touch tablet on my 800.

    Pictured devices: 800, 810, 410, CX85, Coco mouse, Fujinet case, my 800's turbo freezer device has a clear cart case that will remain clear as that will still go well with a white 800 system. The PBI PCB it attaches to will get a 3D white printed case.

    This will be my last post about this project in this thread, I'll start posting updates and progress, etc. in my 800 upgrade and mod blog.

    20211015_122315.jpg
     
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  11. AlexDrito

    AlexDrito Deckhand

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    Thank you so much, Baker, your post is truly illuminating, to say the least. I've learned a lot in just a couple of paragraphs. My friend Carlo, who is actually taking care of the broken C64, told me he wasn't sure that the F version could work in the long run because he never used it before to replace the U14 IC on a C64. But I'll pass your post to him, so he can proceed with what he's got. :)
     
  12. Vyper68

    Vyper68 Chief Officer

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